Elbow cartilage defect treatment in 924 Orthopedic surgery clinics worldwide

Prayers and love for all the people of Reverend Alain I am writing after a visit myself to express our overwhelming gratitude for the incredible care and service I experienced during my recent visit to the esteemed Tawam Hospital. Also appreciate the welcoming environment and top notch facilities. The medical professionals at Tawam Hospital were truly outstanding. The depth of knowledge and expertise in their respective fields was evident, and the concise explanations put my mind at ease and confident. I was incredibly impressed by the hospital's cleanliness and state-of-the-art equipment. It is clear that your commitment to providing exceptional care is unwavering. The use of state-of-the-art technology throughout the facility has strengthened our confidence in the quality of treatment for my loved ones. After experiencing it firsthand, I can confidently say that Tawam Hospital deserves the highest praise for providing outstanding healthcare. I would wholeheartedly recommend Tawam Hospital to anyone in need of medical care. Thank you to the entire Tawam Hospital team for the exceptional care and dedication you have shown. Your commitment to excellence is truly commendable, and we sincerely hope that you will continue to provide outstanding healthcare for patients and their families. Many prayers and love for the hospital authorities and all the staff

Dear Tawam Hospital Management, I want to express my heartfelt appreciation for the exceptional care and dedication shown by your team in saving my wife’s life. Your commitment to providing top-notch medical services, along with the compassion and support offered during this challenging time, have been truly remarkable. We are immensely grateful for the life-saving efforts of your staff and the expertise that your hospital provides. Thank you for giving us hope and a second chance. Your hospital and its staff are true heroes. With sincere gratitude, God Bless UAE 🇦🇪

The commitment, professionalism, and compassion displayed by the medical, nursing, and management staff, especially in the emergency department and also within the ENT and General Surgical departments, are truly impressive. They serve as an inspiring model for all other healthcare providers. Sending them my blessings and best regards

I was there from November 20th to November 27th because of a cervical disc prosthesis. If only I had had this clinic last year I could have saved myself an operation. This clinic is really great. Doctors, nursing staff and so on, everyone is super nice and always has a smile. I couldn't complain about the food. Some other clinics can learn a lesson from this clinic. You're all really great, keep it up and stay the way you are. Some disadvantages are that there is no cafeteria so you can sit for a bit. 🤣 Thanks a million to all of you.

I had a hip operation in July, the preparation and organization was great. The staff, nurses and doctors were all excellent, only the food could be improved. I can only recommend this clinic.

I had hip surgery in Hohwald 4 months ago and am very satisfied with the result. The doctors and nurses are all very nice. Unless Doctor Cancler should think about how he treats his patients. Telling a patient the day before surgery that her prognosis doesn't look good is not the most sensitive way.

Had an ACL surgery done by Mihai Vioreanu (June 22) and still in pain with a big scar below my knee. I would not recommend tbh!!

After being bed bound with crippling sciatica for over a month, recovering through exercise, then relapsing back to being bed bound, I decided to get a gp referral to the SSC for a specialist opinion. SSC were highly recommended by a friend who had a lot of work done on his ankle. I had to get my initial MRI scan done externally for the referral as SSC were too busy to handle out patients. Once referred, I met my surgeon (Michael Kelleher) who found an extremely herniated lumbar disc, and I was given the option for surgery, which I agreed to. I went in for surgery literally 7 days later (a miracle given Ireland's rep for medical backlogs), and I haven't looked back since. Sciatica was gone immediately post-surgery, and the pain from the surgery itself was a minor inconvenience in comparison. I am now nearly 4 weeks post op and have regained full movement, ability to drive etc. I still need to take it easy to prevent the risk of re-herniation, but I can definitely say I have my life back again, and I am incredibly grateful to all the staff at SSC. Edit : I am now 9 months post op and going for surgery was still the best decision I ever made. My back is perfect!

No Ethos. They actually don't work with patients that need rehab, they make money with surgeries. I crossed over the country to get there and their "fantastic & professional" attention was to send me back to the hospital I was coming from. Oh! the doctor is very well able to read & write; he read me out my own file (who I carried a copy myself) and he did a summary letter of it to the same doctors that original wrote it down to my file. What a medical advice I got!!!!. On top of that they were training another doctor on this abilities... absolutely no shame. I got no answers to any of my questions, no information or review about my state or any recommendation about treatment or rehab, or anything to do... nothing, nothing at all except for a reading and a letter of information already known.

I live in the USA and was in Paris for vacation. I developed tachycardia on the flight to Paris, which was completely new for me. It lasted over 3 hours and the flight attendants summoned a medical doctor who told me to be checked in Paris. Necker urgent care was the closest facility to where we were staying. Upon walking into their urgent care area, I felt I was walking into a hospital from the 1940's. It was hot, dark and filthy. It looked like the old asbestos tile floors had not been swept or scrubbed in months (yes, I am assuming they were abestos tiles based on my experience with a similar floor in my home). The windows were filthy as well. Paint on the wood trim around the windows was chipping off. Just beyond the waiting area stood an old fashioned hospital screen on wheels. I had not seen one of those since the 1960's. After waiting for an hour, I lost confidence in what I would encounter with medical care and left. I hope this was a really bad example of a medical facility in Paris. I was told later I should have gone to the "American hospital" which no one had told me about beforehand. My taste of "free medical care" in France was not a good one. I hope my impression of their healthcare system was incorrect for the rest of the country. I do want to point out that I was able to enjoy my time in Paris and loved so many things about it. I am grateful for that experience. I am back home now and receiving good care for the condition I developed enroute to France.

I brought my daughter to this hospital early Sunday morning after she received food poisoning from a five star hotel. The staff was awful. They hire people who can barely speak French. Only the MDs were pros. After waiting for almost three hours I finally stopped a male MD and asked if he could see my daughter. Otherwise we would leave. He did and she was discharged shortly thereafter.

Worst hospital experience ever. Really increased the risk of delivering our son, unnecessarily. For weeks mid wives kept threatening there is a risk and we have to induce labor while all the data show that the infant and the mother are healthy. My wife was constantly stressed. When we ask what risk is there, mid wife just says “death of a baby”. Who uses this word in a hospital when there is no real risk? When my wife did start having a contraction, we went to the emergency service. They made us wait for 7 hours stating they are short staffed. There were actually quite a few staffs but they were checking their phones or chatting. We were disheartened but no one showed an interest, no one came and ask if we were doing ok. I repeat, it was an “emergency service”. After the seventh hour I asked when can we be taken care of. They said “we can’t, not enough bed, not enough staffs today. We will have to put you in another hospital”. Well what were they going to do if I hadn’t asked? Left us there unattended for another seven hours? They slowly started looking for other hospitals. Many were also full but finally there was a nice one available just outside Paris. Necker people said “ambulance will be here in 30 minutes”. Of course it took 90 minutes until we finally got to leave this horrible stupid hospital. Thanks to the nice second hospital, the baby was born in 12 hours after we had moved there, safe and sound. Maybe we just had a sequence of bad staffs at Necker. But for the entire time we commuted there and visited at the day of delivery, unfortunately we hardly met anyone there that cares or even shows a remote interest in patients. .

Terrible for getting a ticket, it's a two-hour line And after that two hours to do paperwork you have to wait for them to call you, you arrive at 5 in the morning and you leave at 3 in the afternoon, if that's all.

Ok

Definitely the best pediatric hospital in the city. The attention was more than excellent from the guards, administrative staff, auxiliary nurses and doctors, from Emergencies, Surgery and Recovery. The patient treatment is 100% professional, very attentive and friendly. Thank you so much.

First call to your secretariat to make an appointment, and I might as well tell you that the secretary should review her way of responding and explaining things without necessarily being haughty, and ridiculous as she says so well. .

This hospital sucks, avoid this hospital as much as possible!!! Went to the emergency room with my daughter for her ear, the doctor says wait a minute and after waiting half an hour it didn't come off anymore, but he was walking back and forth in his workspace .... grrrrr we are just left without further information.

People's health no longer comes first, is a commercial hospital just like all other hospitals, there are a few good doctors but also a few serious bunglers: Dr. De Kelver, Dr Segers, these are not good Dr and have no conscience...

A really big THANK YOU to Dr Bernard for his remarkable and exceptional skill in saving my limp. Been in road accident twice, yet I'm lucky enough to met with Dr Bernard. A very well experienced, talented and down to earth Orthopaedic doctor that put his life long skill into saving my limp. Not only he is being helpful to my needs during my recent admission, he also explained in details about my surgery and conditions. Yet after the surgery, I do not suffer any severe pain and I recover well.

It’s been around 3 months since my second cataract operation and I’m still marvelling at going around without glasses, for the first time in almost 60 years! Summer’s coming and I can wear RayBans without contact lenses, thanks to Doctor Howard and his team. Thanks also to the management and staff at Sungai Long Specialist Hospital for their friendly professionalism.

Good place and friendly staff here. From security guard, front desk, customer service staff, nurse and even the doctors here are very helpful, caring and friendly. Super thanks to Dr. Ng C.K who help deliver my baby. My wife have a pleasant delivery experience for our first born baby. And also thanks to Dr. Alex who really care with babies. Thank you for the follow up too. The midwife here are very friendly and willing to teach you how to feed baby if you are first time daddy/mummy. Especially the gentle Indian midwife lady, very knowledgeable on how to take care babies and teach my wife on latching the baby. Best things is the car park area are free. Although space is limited, but security guard able to guide you to park and they allow you to double park by providing phone number. So if someone getting their car, they able to call you. Such a lovely and super friendly specialist hospital. Just like their name “博爱医院”. A hospital that filled with love and care.

I have undergone septoplasty. I was taken care of from the very beginning and had virtually no stress during the surgery thanks to the approach of the doctors and nurses. I remember particularly well the nurse on night duty who looked after me after the surgery. I can recommend this place with a clear conscience. If I were to come back for any treatment, it would definitely be here.

I made an appointment for 3 p.m. I was there 20 minutes early. When I got off work... it turned out that there were two more people in front of me. The doctor came before 3 p.m. and asked the person first in line. Around 3:40 p.m. the gentleman was still sitting in the office, and I had to go to work... I was scheduled for another visit to this specialist in two months. I will add that my previous visit was canceled and postponed to December 5.

I used it as part of my insurance package, but I will not choose this facility again. Visit to an orthopedist. Lumbar pain. I'm not a specialist and I chose the type of visit to a specialist suggested by the mobile application in the interview. The visit lasted maybe 5 minutes, the doctor quoted "he won't do any cutting" and criticized me for going to him and things like that I'm supposed to start with a primary care doctor. Well, no words. P.S. Referral to X-ray. Alr. I won't report to this facility with the results.

From my initial contact with customer services, everything just flowed smoothly. From entering reception, having the tests and X-Rays, having the operation on my knee, recovering, and being taken to my apartment, then going through the rehab program. Everything has been worked out to run as smoothly as possible. The cars are there to meet you at the airport. They come every day and take you to the clinic and back to your place of stay. The drivers are all polite with lots of patience. I cannot praise Nordorthopaedics highly eneough. Wonderful service from all involved.

My GP was very sceptical when I told him that I was considering going to Lithuania to solve my knee problem. He immediately put me in touch with university friend who orthopedic surgeon. After a one to one consultation with him it became clear that private medical surgery in the UK (more specifically Scotland) was going to be very expensive with a minimal rehabilitation plan. I then contacted Nord through the "contact us" form on their website. Emilija phoned me the next day offering to answer any questions that I had. From then on, the process just seemed to happen. There was no hard sell or problems, just solutions! The medical team were very thorough about medical history, as they do not want anything to go wrong! I confirmed with Emilija, my date for surgery. My wife and I then booked the flight from Edinburgh and self-catering accommodation. One of Nord's drivers picked up us from Kaunas airport and took us to our apartment. From then on all transport was communicated by WhatsApp. We were collected for the pre-op check at the clinic. The X-Rays, blood tests etc were carried out incredibly efficiently with no waiting around. I was asked then to fill in all the forms and pay! On the morning of the operation, I was collected and taken to the clinic. I was shown to my room. I was to share with another gentleman who had had his partial knee replacement the previous day. I was prepared for the operation in a very professional way that I didn't even have a feeling of trepidation! The next thing I knew I awoke in the bed, with the sedation having worn off but not the epidural - very strange not to be able to feel anything below the waist! The first and second nights were fairly painful. The nursing team expect to be called whenever they are needed - they don't tend to check up unless prescribing meds or bringing food. The physio came round the day after the op for walking lessons on a pair of crutches, including down and up stairs. On day 2, another X-Ray and follow-up consultation with the surgeon confirmed my discharge; I was taken back to my apartment. I was able to walk to have some lunch on Liberty Avenue (the main street). For the next 15 days, I was picked up for physio, which included dressing changes and pain meds top-up if required. After 5 days, i was told to leave one crutch at home! within 7 days I was walking unaided, but did overdo it when my step counter logged that I had walked over 7km. The physio sessions are imperative for a smooth recovery. Mostly they are gentle and controlled, but can be brutal! The exercises are combined with cryotherapy, homework exercises and the use of icepacks. I would recommend at least 12 days physio. The journey home on the plane was less painful than the outbound one! 20 days post op, I am doing the exercises religiously. It is still sore at times, but certainly better than knee I left Scotland with less than 3 weeks ago. I drove my car on day 19! If you have any doubts, just look at the reviews and join the Facebook page! Good luck (although you shouldn't need it!)!

Before reviewing Nord Clinic, I wanted to finish at least 10 weeks of post-surgery rehab to see how I was doing after my total hip replacement in mid-September. I am walking much better, including stairs. The previous pain and problems are gone. I am back at the gym, and now planning without fear a hiking and mountain biking trip in New Zealand. My experience with Nord Clinic was vastly positive, with only a few very minor glitches. They lived up to their reputation on Facebook and elsewhere. Should I have family members or friends in need of the services which Nord Clinic offers, I would 100% recommend Nord Clinic. Now that I have recovered my mobility, I am realizing that the surgery is turning out to be one of the best decisions I have made in quite some time. As a final note, my stay for Rehab was at the Radisson Hotel -- which I can also recommend as a solid choice.

Had total hip replacement surgery yesterday under Mr Rhodri Williams and Team. The care I have received has been amazing. Everything was explained in detail so I knew exactly what would be happening which really helped me process and deal with post op recovery. Absolutely amazing hospital and caring staff. Nothing is too much trouble

I was treated amazingly by everyone that I met from the healthcare assistant to the consultant. The consultant was amazing and reassured me all the way through my surgery and the theatre nurse was amazing too as she held my hand and reassured me too as I have claustrophobia and had to have my face covered and it was so reassuring having her there talking to me throughout the operation. I can not thank the staff enough and would definitely 100% recommend the hospital to anyone in a position to be able to pay for treatment

My experience at Werndale Hospital was fantastic. Having never been to a private hospital before it has truly opened my eyes with regards to how nicely I was treated. All the staff were friendly, polite and professional, nothing was too much trouble. Thank you so much to the whole team for making me feel at ease before, during and after my operation. I will highly recommend.

Thank Dr.Isabelle (ENT ) and Royal Phnom Penh hospital for smoothing Tonsil remove surgery and 24 hr service take good care of the patient . Feel very familiar and warm . High recommend 💯✅

Royal Phnom Penh Hospital Express service Spacious room, clean, standard as in Thailand

Very clean and professional western hospital with high tech equipment, unfortunately i had to visit. My doctors english was not so good and the nurse that had to give me an infusion missed my vein 5 times which was annoying and hurt. After visiting and receiving tons of medication i felt better tho

A well-organized hospital, with friendly nursing and service staff. The medical care was great and everything was explained well to me and my questions were answered. The food was very good and either kept well chilled or well hot. I can happily recommend this hospital.

Worst experience ever. Had glass in my foot the doctor spent 5 hours dealing with me ,she cut my foot so badly and she could not finish the job. In parallel people kept being distracted the whole time and this work requires a bit of silence and concentration. The hospital is cold, there is wifi but does not work and my friend waited 5 hours with me and due to the fact it is unbearable temperature she got t a cold too. Also the doctor sent me with a note saying I decided to leave and she did not finish the job, no one was skilled to help her. I was not going to stay so she could continue to cut my foot with a scalpel and not find the glass. You can see the bad job.

6 hours waiting for nothing . All are slow work and mot friendly!!! Never anymore in this hospital never !!!! 👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼

Since its establishment in 1984, Samrita Hospital Limited is known as the pioneer of private medical services in Dhaka and all over Bangladesh. The hospital is located in Panthapath, the heart of the capital Dhaka.

Good service..the stafs have very good & humble behaviour..the hospital was very neat & clean.Also they gave me the good advices for my patient..special thanks to Ismail sir who are the kidney specialist in Shamarita hospital & stafs of HCU (High care unit).They maintain discipline. But,The assistant doctor of HCU have no manners.He have a bad behaviour.Please kindly check this matter about assistant doctor,,,,,The senior doctors are very humble & good at all.

Have an women shop for buying all items of products in a shop name "ladies fashion house and cosmetics corner.

I only visit the hospital emergency when it is very urgent, unfortunately I have never left satisfied. They didn't give me proper examinations, the drugs prescribed for inflammation in the body had side effects of "possible formation of inflammation in the body". If you have to call for the results after 3 days, you have no chance to call. When I passed out in the corridor, the lady from the cafe upstairs had to help me, because two of the sisters had a lunch break, so why should they help me, and the third one preferred not to see me. There is no point in solving anything with management - they will always turn everything against you and sweep it under the carpet.

Recently I took my friend from Poland to this hospital, the doctor demanded 3000 Czech crowns, explaining at the same time that if she was Czech, the service would be free. I’m wondering how much funding for the construction and ongoing maintenance of such a resource in the region comes directly or indirectly from EU resources?

Nice hospital, kind staff, there is a parking.

On November 21, 2023, I underwent knee arthroscopy. Heartfelt thanks for any help, care, advice and, above all, the professionalism of the doctors, nurses and staff on duty.

On November 24, I was at the emergency clinic. The approach of the nurses and doctors was very professional and humane. Thank you for everything and I wish them good health and patience in their demanding work.

I was there in the emergency room with my 1 and a half year old son when he cut off his belly on his finger. We didn't wait, they took us right away, there were wonderful nurses who calmed me down too. They played songs and sang to their son while they sewed up his finger, and there were also students trying to cheer him up. Before I left, they also packed bandages, gauze, etc. if I needed it at home. I was very surprised by the approach and I'm glad that I came across a great shift.

Today I went to ORL department at ST Michaels because of the pain in my left ear. While sailing on Danube we were just passing by and I had to run and jump in without appointment. Not only did the MUDr. Matúš Čentéš find the time for me, help me with spot on diagnose and best treatment, but he also went his way to show me where the pharmacy is, he took a few minutes out of his busy schedule to explain prescribed medicine. He is the true role model for his proffesion. Doc I hope you read this, I wish you all the best, may God bless you and keep you. Thanks again. Elmir

I needed immediate medical attention and they sent me away to another hospital 10km away because I’m am neither a policeman nor a firefighter

Hospitality perfect, the servis too. In different hospital they wanted to operate my hernia discs, i relocated here and in 3 days they fixed me up prkperly wothout operation. Thumbs up! Also food is much better then other hospitals and doctors are very friendly and will always properly explain whats going on and discuss various options for you. I will reccomend this hospital anytime!

Opinion on private family natural birth. Premium package. It was my second birth. The first one was at Medeor Hospital in Łódź, which I remember much better even though I didn't pay for it. There I experienced warmth, respect and understanding that was often lacking here. I went to the hospital after 6 hours of painful contractions with severe pain. I was seen by a doctor who from the very beginning called me "you", treating me with contempt. I don't remember his name, but I think he introduced himself as Marek (I think it was Dr. Marek Korożan, but I could be wrong because 2 years have passed since the birth). Based on the CTG results, he said that I was not giving birth at all, but since I had already come from far away, I should go to the antenatal room and go to sleep, and that I would definitely not give birth in the near future. At the very beginning, I felt like an intruder and a bother of four letters. I spent several hours in the room with my husband - of course, not sleeping and fighting contractions. After a few hours, a midwife (Ms. Joanna Miłosz) came and asked if I should be examined. I agreed. It turned out that I was 6 cm dilated and they asked if I should give anesthesia. I remember the midwife fondly. The anesthesiologist was also very nice and tried to relax the atmosphere while administering anesthesia. Morning came and with it a change of staff. Another gynecologist was very cold and unpleasant. When the anesthesia was removed and I started to complain about my statement that it hurts, I heard that I had pain when I was lying under anesthesia, and now it doesn't hurt at all, so I shouldn't say that because it's not true :-) Childbirth after anesthesia lying down despite my willingness and strength to give birth in a vertical position. While pushing, I heard some sarcastic and embarrassing comments from this lady (I unfortunately didn't remember her name). I felt very uncomfortable. Even on the National Health Fund, I have never been treated so disrespectfully and unpleasantly. When complications occurred, fortunately Dr. Chmyłko and Dr. Wnuk came and alleviated the unpleasant atmosphere. The birth was difficult and had complications, but thanks to them I felt cared for and safe at that moment. I also remember the doctor fondly. med. Anna Lew-Tusk - a neonatologist who took great care of our daughter when it turned out that her test results were not good. Postpartum care was generally okay, but despite my high temperature (infection) and the baby crying all night, I was not offered to take the baby so I could rest. Despite the completed birth plan and my clear objection to it, an injection of vitamin K was administered, later claiming it was by mistake. Other objective facts: comfortable beds, nice maternity room, good food. Due to complications for me and my daughter, we stayed in the ward a few days longer and I did not pay anything extra for this. My memories of giving birth are rather unpleasant. I paid for a private birth to avoid unpleasant situations and give birth in harmony with myself - my expectations were definitely not met. I wouldn't choose to give birth at Swissmed again.

Last week I had a planned CC in Swissmed - breech position. I am very pleased with my choice, the medical staff was very nice, everyone answered my questions, doubts and explained them. My husband was able to be with me during the surgery, after the surgery the care was also very good, the midwives and neonatal nurses were very helpful, kind and understanding. The doctors were also very nice and patient. I recommend

Doctors nice and competent however ladies on the phone rude and not helpful… they instruct you before you even explain what is the problem and have ZERO understanding and patience for family of patients. we paid for the test we did not get results on, trying to get through to the doctor on the phone- impossible. I do not recommend this hospital unfortunately due to poor customer service.

Wonderful clinic! Absolute purity. The doctors are amazing. Today I was at a reception with Nadezhda Fedorovna’s Daisies. Excellent doctor, explained everything in detail and prescribed treatment. Prosperity to the clinic and health to all employees. We need you!

4.11.23 I came at 8:00 to donate blood. As a result, the nurse arrived only at 8:30. I went to the receptionist twice and asked where the nurse was, she said she went to give an injection in the emergency room. Such a mess. I paid the money and waited another 30 minutes for the nurse. Is this a high tech clinic???

I took tests at the WMT clinic on Postovaya and registered at the reception without any problems. The administrators helped me connect my personal account, which received all my test results the next day. I was pleased with the cafe and water coolers on each floor. It’s convenient to eat after taking tests on an empty stomach

Well, what can I say, for the inadequate money they charge for services, the doctors are still ok, but the staff could be more polite. The attitude is as if I am in a free regional clinic. Dissatisfied faces of nurses, waiting 40 minutes for discharge and constant questions about when I will finally leave and rolling their eyes at my requests. A special gem was the cloakroom attendant who confronted me about why I left my jacket. They left me at the department because I felt bad. As if I had to run after them all, which is what I had to do

Very good medical center. The doctors are all experienced and knowledgeable. And most importantly - with a sincere desire to help people! They do it efficiently and conscientiously. They personally helped me cope with a serious diagnosis in 3 months!

Great clinic. 5 points. I have long wanted to have an operation, but I couldn’t choose a clinic... I finally settled on Sandinavia, which I didn’t regret at all! They were the only ones who offered me the support of a manager. I arranged for accompaniment during registration at the clinic. The whole procedure was so quick, simple and easy! No extra worries or hassle. In the evening I also wrote to my manager and clarified a couple of points. I felt that I was not alone)). I am very pleased that the clinic is developing and doing everything for its patients. I wish you not to slow down and keep up the good work!

State of the art hospital and wonderfully caring staff. Amazing attentiveness from all the doctors, technicians and engineers; the staff are very professional and genuinely kind. They answer any questions and are incredibly comforting and patient. I had an MRI of 2 sections done here, was really well taken care of. Special thanks to head nurse Katarina and the engineer Zvonimir Matic. An extraordinary team. Would definitely recommend.

Amazing Hospital! Incredible service, very attentive staff, extremely accommodating and takes excellent care of patients. The facilities are state of the art and impeccably clean. Definitely worth the money! The level of service is fantastic! Thank you to Katarina, the head nurse at radiology, who was lovely! Pat

Billed the examination directly to me even though it was covered by my insurance. Refused to fix the mistake when pointed out. Definitely avoid